Satyamev Jayate Episode 2: Child Sexual Abuse

I am glad they took up the subject of Child Sexual Abuse today on Satyamev Jayate. However, today’s episode left me vaguely dissatisfied. The uncompromising truth seeking of the previous episode seemed missing. It was good to see adult victims of child sexual abuse, but obviously, they were no longer children, and their having come to terms with their history, or been permanently scarred was more about adults with a history of child sexual abuse than children. The child’s perspective, which was possible, was missing. Not necessarily through interviewing children, but even by showing the all encompassing scope of the problem. For example, the show seems to consider parents or teachers as safe people. Newspapers tell us that it is not so. At other times, a child’s protector may be socially handicapped to help. For example a mother in an abusive family. Then there is Child Sexual Abuse perpetrated by older children. Consider the abduction, rape, imprisonment and starvation of the girl from Malad last year.

While I don’t want to sound fatalistic, some amount of darkness becomes inevitable when you have 53% of children who have suffered from sexual abuse at some point. The show failed to explore the magnitude of the problem in my view. There were a lot of black and white stereotypes, which are not necessarily true with Child Sexual Abuse. For example:

  • Child Sexual Abusers can also be “safe” people like parents, teachers or school principal, though the clear talk that a doctor shouldn’t be touching them privately without parent present was welcome.
  • The impression that a Child Sexual Abuser is an adult – is not necessarily true. They can also be school bullies or older children
  • The impression that Child Sexual Abuse happens with children staying with their families is the tip of the iceberg. Boarding schools, trafficked children for begging, slavery, prostitution, for example, or the role of traditions or religions – temple girls, pedophilia by religious figures, cultural sanction to using boys for sexual abuse among some communities… Those are kids let down by every protector you could imagine. There are many things that people can resist in the world around them if they know to look for and confront them.

I did not like the idea of labeling parts of the child’s own body as dangerous. Such thinking is also at the root of a lot of sexual inhibitions in adults – the idea that a part of their body is dirty, dangerous, forbidden, etc…. It is the abuser’s action that is dangerous and this must be clear to children. For example, a person who has touched them inappropriately continuing to rub their arms when asked to stop is not safe either. Also the fear factor that comes with danger leads to paralysis. Would have been more useful to assert that the child’s body is their own and they have the right to grant or refuse touch. If a touch makes them uncomfortable, they have the right to forbid it and draw attention, escape, confide in their “bodyguard” etc. This would also help children confront other abuse like hitting, for example. A more empowering way of looking at it by putting the power of rights over their body squarely in the hands of the child, would go a long way in helping combat the helplessness of being in a potentially (or actually) abusive situation.

Other grey areas like what happens in an ambiguous situation? Where an adult’s touch may have an innocent intent, but feels invasive to the child? It is important to clarify the need to ask the adult to back off anyway and make it clear that their affection (or whatever) is not perceived by the child in the way they intend. Failing that, there is a whole playground for perverts to claim innocence and bank on the child’s inability to detail the situation as abusive.

There should have been more attention to pre-verbal children or children with mental or physical disabilities that make them unable to narrate their experience to ask for help. The need to monitor them closely, because they cannot tell. Including one of the parents staying home to take care of the child in the absence of absolutely trustworthy support or occasionally monitoring the child’s environment in their absence through say a hidden camera or wiring them for sound, if needed.

There also was relatively less attention to older children. Statistics say that the incidence of Child Sexual Abuse is highest among children 10 years and older, peaking around 15 years. Do we consider these to be “adult” and “consenting” like the pedophiles that the sexual danger that comes with visible physical maturity was ignored altogether?

There was data from only one study used. There are statistics on the NCRB website, for example, lots of research on Child Sexual Abuse in other countries and such. This should have been used to create a fuller picture.

There should have been a better look at the lack of laws. What are laws in other countries, details of the proposed bill, etc. Successful prosecutions or failures from other countries or India, for example would bring the realities to the front.

All in all, I got the feel of push button activism from this episode. Here is a possible problem, if you encounter it, push this button. Send an SMS to get a law that will bring about justice. Nirvana. The Hindi filmi happy ending feel, when the reality is far more grim. While I absolutely adore Harrish Iyer and loved seeing his mom, and the faces of the victims brought realism, the overwhelming takeaway from the show was people rather than information. It seemed to lack the meticulous research and diversity of the previous episode on Female Foeticide.

All this said, the show is still something I am grateful for, because it is most certainly better than nothing. If people start thinking of these things, it is a beginning, and hopefully they will also join the dots on their own.

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15 thoughts on “Satyamev Jayate Episode 2: Child Sexual Abuse”

  1. I came across this site just few days back and I am happy that people talk bout this. Everyone thinks only men do bad things. It is not true. Women also do bad things to children.

    As someone said it is not reported.

    During my school days I used to go to my maternal grand parents home for holidays with my younger brother. My mothers family was a big family and she has 5 brothers and a sister. My mother is the second eldest in the family and her sister – my aunt – was the youngest. The age difference between my mother and her sister was almost 13 years.

    All my uncles were in different cities and only my aunt used to be there in my grandparents house.

    Until I was 8 or 9 my mom only used to bathe me whether at our home or in my grandmas house.

    I remember well – when I went for my 4th standard summer vacation only – it all started. My aunt had finished her school and started going to college then. I guess she was about 17 or 18.

    My mom always used to give bath to me and then my younger brother (younger by 4 years). For the first time my aunt came in while my mother started bathing me and said she can help by bathing my brother. It looked just normal. My mom bathed me and my aunt bathed my brother.

    The very next day, my aunt told my mom she can bathe both of us. My mom did not care and let it go on.

    If my aunt had bathed me just the way my mom did, I would not have bothered at all I guess. My mom had started bathing me with my underpants itself in the last few months as I was getting older.

    That first day I remember very well. She first bathed my brother and sent him out. Then she called me inside the bathroom and asked me to undress. I removed everything except my underpants and stood. She asked me to remove that also.

    When I hesitated and said “I bathe with this only” , she just shouted out loud to my mom saying “I want to put the dress for soaking before wash. Vishwa is not removing and giving me the dress for soak. Ask him to give”.

    My mom then asked me to do it and I had to take off my underpants and give her. I still recall that mischievous triumphant smile in my aunts face when I had to obey her finally and handover that underpants to her.

    “I have seen you from your birth and why are you shy with me?” she asked and pinched my boy part with her fingers gently for a moment, took it off and then kissed her fingers. I can never forget that humiliation. (This is something which she used to do often with naked boys)

    Then she started bathing me and it was very different from the way my mom bathed me. It was sensuous. Her looks her smiles, her movements and behavior. She will spend more time bathing me and she will soap me twice always. One of her hands will be down below most of the time playing with my back or front.

    From that day on wards, whenever she bathed me she will bathe me nude only and she seemed to enjoy my nudity thoroughly. She never allowed me to stay with underpants while bathing.

    I started disliking it and complained to my mom that i will bathe myself. From next year, she stopped it but she continued it with my brother for long.

    Not only while bathing even otherwise she used to abuse me or my brother. There are many ways she used to abuse. There are many occasions that I remember she abused us. She will intelligently use opportunities to abuse us that will never look odd to others .
    If we traveled in bus or car my brother or I will be on her laps to be fingered by her. If we traveled in train, she will make one of us to sleep with in her berth . If we go for a movie, again one of us will be in her lap to be fondled. While watching TV also I remember her around and if anyone of us falls asleep anytime we will land in her laps and hands.

    If we have to change dress, she will jump in to do it. While pulling down the pant often she will pull the underpants also along with the pant – as if unknowingly – and while doing that she will pinch and kiss our boy part – even when others around and watching.

    For others she looked like a caring aunt but she was in fact abusing us to the limit.

    The worst and most obvious that I remember is this. Once when no one was around she simply lifted my younger brother who was sleeping and undressed him fully and made him sleep on her lap naked, kissing him, caressing him all over. My aunt kept abusing him for almost an hour like that which I can not forget.

    There is more. I can not say everything here.

    Many years have passed by now
    But now when we see her we have to respect her because she is our aunt. I some how keep my interactions minimal. If I say this no one will believe also.

    Who says only men abuse children. Women also do- may be more than men – but in a covert manner so that it never gets reported.

  2. I was abused even at the age of 14. My Aunt used to give bath to me in front of my 16 year old cousin sister. Aunt used to make comments about my genetal and both used to laugh.

    1. The quirky thing about “Child Sexual Abuse” of boys by women or girls is that those instances or events never get reported or recorded or forms part of statistics.

      The reasons are

      – almost all the boys sexually abused by women are related to or known to the victim (like some one said here – aunt, sister, neighbor girl, relative woman, maid etc.)

      – women do not attack the boys physically (like sodomy, penetrartion etc). But that does not mean that they do not do any thing wrong. They do many things

      – In majority of the cases, women or girls make use of opportunities like “Bathing” to sexually abuse the boys.

      – “bathing a boy” is made to look like “just a daily chore or activity” and hence when a boy is bathed it does not seem wrong

      – most of the women and girls definitely abuse the boys while bathing and the boy does not really understand what is being done to him.

      – the boy will understand that it was an abuse only when he grows up and fully understands what was done to him – like Dheeraj and many others who had gone through such things

      – so when the abuse really happens the boy does not complain or even if he resists or avoids, it is seen as normal pranks by others

      – but the fact is that when a girl or woman takes a boy for bathing, she knows very well that she can get him undressed as well as touch his entire body using bathing as an excuse and the girls “sexually abuse the boy” while bathing

      The funny thing is that the girls or women can “sexually abuse” the boy while bathing but can still not be seen by others as abusers – because it is just “normal bathing”

      They can get the boy undressed, touch, wash,soap,pass comments and do whatever they feel like while bathing and “sexually abuse and exploit the boy” But finally the girls conveniently escape from being called abuser because all those shady and abusive things that they do to the boy , they will say “it is part of bathing”

      So, it is very clear that when a girl abuses a boy using bathing as an excuse, everything is tilted in the favor of girls and everything is against the defense less victim – who just can not do any thing.

      The fact is that girls “do sexually abuse boys” but they are completely shielded and protected.

      These instances are never reported when it happens. If we collect info from all victims like Dheeraj, I am sure girls would be worse or at least as bad abusers as men.

    2. I am writing this post with more specific data.

      I fully agree that men form a significantly higher % of offenders when it comes to any crime including child abuse. Talking about female offenders in no way tends to support or shield male offenders. When a crime is committed,- say a murder – we should not generally see whether the criminal is male or female. In the same way, when child sexual abuse is done by a female or male, it should be viewed the same way.
      Though large % of Child abusers are male offenders, the fact remains that there are many female perpetrators too in the society who also abuse children– which we have resistance to accept.

      Let me take just few lines simply cut out from certain research papers or articles on this subject

      An initial barrier to recognizing and hence reporting abuse by females is confusion regarding
      what constitutes sexually abusive behavior. Given that women are permitted a much greater range
      of physical contact with children than are men, the boundary that would indicate a shift from
      non-abusive to abusive behavior is much more difficult to discern (Goodwin & DiVasto, 1982). A
      related argument is that their traditional role as caretakers affords women the opportunity to easily
      hide or mask abusive behavior (James & Nasjleti, 1983). Thus women may make inappropriate
      sexual contact through activities such as bathing or dressing a child (Groth, 1979) or may sleep with
      or caress a child in sexual ways, all which are unlikely to be reported (Justice & Justice, 1979).

      Where sexual abuse is more overt, under-reporting may also occur due to the greater taboo that
      surrounds female perpetration. It has been asserted that disclosure is less likely if individuals
      believe the experience is extraordinary in any way (Courtois, 1988) or believe that they will not be
      taken seriously (Saradjian, 1996) A tendency for adult survivors and victims to disclose female
      abuse later rather than earlier in therapy, and after disclosure of abuse by males, has also been noted
      (Sgroi & Sargent, 1993). Furthermore clinical reports indicate a tendency for disclosure to occur
      only after a trusting therapeutic relationship has been established

      What is suggested here is the operation of a powerful taboo against disclosure, the implication
      being that retrospective surveys in which individuals are expected to summarily share painful and
      shameful experiences may be an inadequate method of accessing this information. As a result, the
      low rates such studies have yielded may be misleading. Indeed, Allen (1990) highlights as
      essentially problematic the practice of assuming that female child sexual abuse is rare simply
      because reported rates are low and references in the literature are few. In direct contrast,
      information obtained in other contexts suggest much higher rates of female-perpetrated sexual
      abuse

      Reasons why we tend to think or statistics how that females form a very small % is not because there are only few offenders but because

      – Women abuse the boys in a very covert ways like bathing, cuddling, fondling, sleeping with etc
      – Since they abuse the boys under the cover of some other “caring” activities like bathing, the abusive fondling, caressing etc that they do “becomes part” of “bathing” though it is in fact abuse.
      – In most of those such covert female abuse, the victim does not realize that he is being abused when it happens. In an overwhelming majority of cases, the victim realizes that he was abused only when he becomes an adult – much later in his life. Like Dheeraj or Ajay here. By then it is too late to talk about.
      – Even if the victim reports it, no one takes it seriously and hence the victim gets no support from the society.

      All these factors indicate that there are female abusers and the instances involving them are highly under reported.

      I know a case where a boy was abused by his aunt when he was young while bathing. Now he has grown up but still has to respect his aunt whom he does not like at all.

  3. As Ajay said above, there are many women and girls out there who abuse boys for their pleasure in real life but never comes out in open. The irony is that
    – they not only get access to boys very easily by cleverly using opportunities like taking care,changing or bathing etc
    – but they repeatedly abuse the boys and every time they walk away with impunity as their abuse is made to look like a normal activity eg bathing.

    This is a very common scene anyone of us would have come across. An aunt, girly neighbor, maid servant or some relative lady or a relative girl – being given permission by his mother to bathe his son or in some cases the perpetrator offering to help the mother by bathing him.

    Even we would have faced such a situation when young.

    Not all are bad but many of them once they get the boy ensure that he is undressed fully while they bathe him and enjoy.

    Let me copy paste what I saw elsewhere in the web about a personal experience of someone.
    ———
    The world paints a picture as if only girls are abused by men but many boys are cleverly abused by women and girls. The worst thing is they often behave as if nothing abnormal is happening

    Bathtime is when not only the modesty of boys are just not at all considered but even it exposes the helpless boys to be very easily abused by women under the disguise of bathing them.

    I myself have seen many such things happen and one such incident was when I had to go to my neighbors house to collect back a document I had given them.

    It was a Saturday morning and the 8 year old boys mother calls him to come for an oil bath as I enter, who was playing in the living room. I had to wait for just few minutes in their living room as the boy’s father went upstairs to search and get the document. In those few minutes everything happened.

    Immediately after the mother called out, a young girl who is just in her twenties appears, offers to bathe the boy as if trying to help the mom with her chore. I could clearly make out from the way she got in at the right moment that she was scheming and waiting for this. The mom says ok as if it is nothing. The boy keeps saying “No oil bath today” but no one seems to care.

    It all happens in just a second, it looks so normal as the girl so easily gets the permission to bathe a boy. She is all smiles and quickly goes and comes out with a cup of oil and hurries him to come for the oil bath. The boy reluctantly walks inside. From the way the boy addressed that girl, I could make out she is the younger sister of the mother.

    As I was in the living room I could not see what was happening after that but only could hear. The young girl asks him to take off his clothes and there is some silence. Looked like they had not gone inside the bathroom as the voices were clear. After few seconds I heard something that shocked me to the core.

    “What are you waiting for, Take off your underpants too, Today is oil bath”

    I hear him pleading for no oil bath and not for taking off. His mom shouts from the kitchen “ you must take oil bath today and take off” I guess he finally submits and removes it off as I hear her saying “ That is good boy,come here”. Then I only heard her asking him to turn to one side or other. Probably she was applying oil.

    After sometime she says “come, let us get inside” and they seem to get inside the bathroom as I hear the door getting closed and latched. After that the voices were feeble and I could not hear much. Also I had to leave and I do not know what happened inside but I am sure that girl got what she wanted that day.

    Oh God! No one cares about the modesty of a boy. The boy seems to have been stripped naked outside the bathroom itself just to apply oil. Not just that. So easily a girl or woman can get the permission to strip a boy naked and abuse him – under the cover of bathing him. The boy will be left with the girl inside a closed bathroom with permission to touch him all over

    But it is made to look just normal by women and girls and the boys have to endure it. Many of them fully misuse the role of caretaker and exploit it.
    ——-

    1. It is true that boys are abused as well, and that women are often a part of child abuse. However, all research so far on child sexual abuse shows men to be the vast majority of perpetrators in the case of sexual abuse of boys as well. The assumption that boys get sexually assaulted means that the assault is heterosexual and thus women are the perpetrators is sadly flawed. Most boys who get raped get sodomized. You may wish to verify this with hospitals. It is an area that is ignored not just by most people who ignore child sexual abuse in boys, but worse, it is misrepresented by those claiming to fight for men’s rights – because they refuse to consider male perpetrators – only male victims of women apparently have rights, when every kind of violent crime actually has men outnumbering women by ten to one.

      1. I fully agree that men form a significantly higher % of offenders when it comes to any crime including child abuse. Talking about female offenders in no way tends to support or shield male offenders. When a crime is committed,- say a murder – we should not generally see whether the criminal is male or female. In the same way, when child sexual abuse is done by a female or male, it should be viewed the same way.
        Though large % of Child abusers are male offenders, the fact remains that there are many female perpetrators too in the society who also abuse children– which we have resistance to accept.

        Let me take just few lines simply cut out from certain research papers or articles on this subject

        An initial barrier to recognizing and hence reporting abuse by females is confusion regarding
        what constitutes sexually abusive behavior. Given that women are permitted a much greater range
        of physical contact with children than are men, the boundary that would indicate a shift from
        non-abusive to abusive behavior is much more difficult to discern (Goodwin & DiVasto, 1982). A
        related argument is that their traditional role as caretakers affords women the opportunity to easily
        hide or mask abusive behavior (James & Nasjleti, 1983). Thus women may make inappropriate
        sexual contact through activities such as bathing or dressing a child (Groth, 1979) or may sleep with
        or caress a child in sexual ways, all which are unlikely to be reported (Justice & Justice, 1979).

        Where sexual abuse is more overt, under-reporting may also occur due to the greater taboo that
        surrounds female perpetration. It has been asserted that disclosure is less likely if individuals
        believe the experience is extraordinary in any way (Courtois, 1988) or believe that they will not be
        taken seriously (Saradjian, 1996) A tendency for adult survivors and victims to disclose female
        abuse later rather than earlier in therapy, and after disclosure of abuse by males, has also been noted
        (Sgroi & Sargent, 1993). Furthermore clinical reports indicate a tendency for disclosure to occur
        only after a trusting therapeutic relationship has been established

        What is suggested here is the operation of a powerful taboo against disclosure, the implication
        being that retrospective surveys in which individuals are expected to summarily share painful and
        shameful experiences may be an inadequate method of accessing this information. As a result, the
        low rates such studies have yielded may be misleading. Indeed, Allen (1990) highlights as
        essentially problematic the practice of assuming that female child sexual abuse is rare simply
        because reported rates are low and references in the literature are few. In direct contrast,
        information obtained in other contexts suggest much higher rates of female-perpetrated sexual
        abuse

        Reasons why we tend to think or statistics how that females form a very small % is not because there are only few offenders but because

        – Women abuse the boys in a very covert ways like bathing, cuddling, fondling, sleeping with etc
        – Since they abuse the boys under the cover of some other “caring” activities like bathing, the abusive fondling, caressing etc that they do “becomes part” of “bathing” though it is in fact abuse.
        – In most of those such covert female abuse, the victim does not realize that he is being abused when it happens. In an overwhelming majority of cases, the victim realizes that he was abused only when he becomes an adult – much later in his life. Like Dheeraj or Ajay here. By then it is too late to talk about.
        – Even if the victim reports it, no one takes it seriously and hence the victim gets no support from the society.

        All these factors indicate that there are female abusers and the instances involving them are highly under reported.

        I know a case where a boy was abused by his aunt when he was young while bathing. Now he has grown up but still has to respect his aunt whom he does not like at all.

  4. Also have heard few others who have felt that the program taps into emotions and could be short on re-search…. all that said a commendable effort

  5. Loved your last line giving credit where due…thought that does not absolve or justify the lacunae….

  6. What I have found very stimulating – the indepth reactions from people such as yourselves.  It has been a subject that for many reasons has been, for far too long taboo.  When people talk discuss and try to find social, individual, legal solutions then a beginning has been made.  It is a subject that is hazardous, dangerous, dark – somewhere we as people have to tackle it and make the experience a less permanent scar in their life, and, provide protection to those who are helpless.  That is the challenge, and being realistic, this challenge is forever, regards and thanks for your views Prabha

  7. Calling some parts ‘danger’ – I also agree is not a good idea, what I always told my kids was any touch that feels uncomfortable to them – is a bad touch and they have a right to refuse.  And I also felt children between 13 to 15 should also have been included, atleast mentioned. 

  8. We need to look at the show more carefully. Who are target audience and what is the motive? Motive is to get us talking. The report (to which Amir alluded in episode) was created in order to prove that this problem is there. Our society is not ready to accept that this problem exists. Nobody will speak up about it. This could be one reason for the lack of research.
    We talk about the celebs, movies etc etc but never talk about rapes happening rampantly or sex selective abortions or relevance of caste-ism etc. I think the emotional content of the show will leave us baffled and we will be careful about such instances around us ( Atleast all the parents who watched the show will ensure safety of their children).
    A child does not understand what sexual abuse is. So you have to give them some instructions (as the creators of the show did) which suggest them some ‘danger’.
    I agree with push button activism remark of yours. We will be moved and we will move on. So it is upto us to take this forward and start talking in our own spheres. 
    This is, by far, the best review I have read of the show. We should not be carried away by all hullabaloo of ‘good work, great show, what man, hats off’ and look into the actual issue critically. Thanks for writing this. 🙂

  9. I think the female foeticide was more easier to know and talk because members in and around the family knows about it. But in case of child abuse it may only be limited to the victim and the attacker. And mostly these are the incidents people would like to forget as they grow mature. So I also suppose that the research was insufficient and maybe they didn’t find enough person talking about it. As you said your point are quite right but Aamir khan has created a small flicker of fire. It will grow with time. Aamir khan cannot and should not single handedly go for all the after effect of the impact of show. 

  10. in relation of being quite descriptive about all the problem area that you have rightly identified looks good; but i certainly feel the show did the greatest to it’s capacity to create awareness at least to largest set of problem which is going in current society. What you mentioned are fine lines which as a parents and as a society people must incorporate and there will be further things and behavior going to add. A direct parents being child abuser is an ugly truth but it will be quite few on stat as compared to others. if the program freaks child against it’s parent itself then it will be difficult to handle the problem itself.I think Satyamev Jayate as first step towards creating such issues which is so local to and embedded in our core society and still we live in denial that everything is okay.
    All problems/issues are such deep rooted in our country no magic wand will provide any solution overnight but we need to start some where.

    I salute Aamir to bring this up and look forward for more such issues which he is going to bring.

  11. Ajay Koppikkar_42

    You are right . some points were missing, but still it was a great first step in this direction to get this issue discussed in India.apart from what you mentioned, one more issue missing was that though it recognised male child victims for the first time, but it failed to even mention that there are lots of female sexual abusers of boys. Myself being a fully sexually abused boy at the hand of my sister who is 8 years older than me, at the age of 6 years.
     The problem with boys is that no one takes their modesty issues seriously, if they show sign of discomfort , then they are said that you need to man up. This leads to confusion in the boy child’s mind that whether having modesty issues are correct for a boy or not, which leads for easiness for the sexual abuse perpetrator – esp the female sexual abuse perpetrator. It is common to say to the teen age girls to bath the young boy, leading to such abuse confusion in child mind, whether to speak up or not. When the teenage girl is streching, manipulating the boy child’s part with sensuality on her face , then obviously it is not penetration, but still it is sexually abuse. 
    Whether the new proposed law takes into account this fact of abused boy at  the hand female abusers – as much as i am informed  that this law only says about male abusers , nothing about female abusers.
    So are you not missing out a large amount of victims.
    Daughter speaking against rapist father is still conceivable, but still child brother speaking up against rapist-sexually-abuser sister 10 years later is still unthinkable, for a brother. It will destroy his whole family in society for generations to come. He will not be even be able to speak up on TV or to a journalist or to a census collector that his mother or sister did it.

    But i hope that as the whole nation including me, is against female foeticide irrespective of whther i am male or female; i hope that you will understand this issue of boys sexually abused by their motherly figures and confusion-shame-guilt-continued-mental-tension on rakhi  and all days on what had happenned in childhood days for many years. And based on individual discussions with some others i know that i am not the lone guy who has faced this.

    Even one incident raised of female perpeterators in this TV program would have saved lots of boys childrens from sexually abused by female sexual abusers who are mentally sick elder sisters , maids, girly neighbours, aunts , and in some rare cases even mothers.

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