Kerala is enacting laws making it punishable to have more than two
. I shared it, thinking that it was not a good idea for a democracy to arbitrarily limit the number of children a couple can have. That too to a number frequently exceeded, so it wasn’t even like dealing with rare instances.
Didn’t make sense to me that someone can decide a number “2” and that is the most children anyone in the state can have. Ok, if this was China… different matter – different kind of government too.
It apparently caught the attention of many people on my TL and an interesting discussion ensued, examining the pros and cons of such a rule.
Warning: Sometimes, it may be difficult to understand which tweet is being replied to, but this is their exact order, which helps keep things clearer rather than me trying to reorganize sequence and confuse matters further. The discussion is fairly clear as it is, I think.
“ Hehe. Awesome. RT @Vidyut: Kidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala http://t.co/aaVLnwv6
“ Finally, “what an idea, Sirji!” RT @PunditComment @VidyutKidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala bit.ly/n3szqd
“ Super RT @gorakhargosh: Hehe. Awesome. RT @Vidyut: Kidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala http://t.co/1q6OSGwN
“ Much needed measure. RT @Vidyut Kidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala http://t.co/hbtUA02p
“ RT @YearOfRat: Finally, “what an idea, Sirji!” RT @PunditComment @VidyutKidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala
“ @doctoratlarge Jailing and fining goes against the very principle of libertarianism. But yes, withdrawing tax benefits does not. @Vidyut
“ @KetPan @Vidyut Yes, but you can jail people if they act against a reasoned out policy which is in the national interest
“ @doctoratlarge @KetPan @Vidyut And where do you draw the line?
“ @Vidyut COMMUNISTS . . true color . . .
“ @maheshnanda @KetPan @Vidyut Difficult question to answer – but you’ll have to take it case by case
“ @KetPan Agree. It is one thing to not support/discourage, another is to criminalize/disallow reproduction @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut 🙂 any awards for NModi from Kerela Gov . . . and punishment for Lalu ? . .
“ @Vidyut Even if the cost of the unbridled reproduction of another has to be borne by my pocket, as a taxpayer? @KetPan
“ @doctoratlarge Individual liberty demands that State not take away personal liberty at cost of national interest…. @Vidyut
“ WTF! RT @Vidyut: Kidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala http://t.co/Z7BD3xAf
“ @doctoratlarge …But the corollary of that, as you rightly pointed out is, that my interests by way of taxation not be compromised. @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge @KetPan @Vidyut Honestly believe self-realization rather than force is a better option, improbable as it might seem.
“ @doctoratlarge Socialism/communism are evil. I should not have to pay from my pocket anything more than what government provides me. @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge @KetPan @Vidyut Demographics in any way have their own way of working out over the long term.
“ @doctoratlarge The idea of ‘engineered redistribution of wealth’ is the one that goes most against libertarianism. @Vidyut
“ @maheshnanda But, @doctoratlarge has a point when he says that the monetary cost of delayed realization must not be on others. @Vidyut
“ @KetPan Huzoor .. Does individual liberty have limits Sir ? @doctoratlarge @Vidyut .. One man’s liberty can disturb another no ?
“ @maheshnanda Inconvenience & pain caused to those who’re born in midst of such demographic crisis are unjustified. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ Step that shd hav been taken much earlier “@Vidyut: Kidding you not! Now, third child can land you in jail in Kerala http://t.co/pMGpk0dM“
“ @KetPan @doctoratlarge @Vidyut That would be the model of a very selfish society, not one aspiring for greatness, China the obvious example.
“ @maheshnanda China is the most communist of them all. 🙂 @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @KetPan @doctoratlarge @Vidyut Sati stopped more through social awareness rather than law, as well as untouchability to an extent for eg.
“ @maheshnanda A man has the right to be selfish if he wants to but he does not have the right to another’s charity @KetPan @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge @KetPan @Vidyut Agree, but we all have a stake in d society we want to build and all have to contribute in some way or other
“ @maheshnanda Everyone who makes a living by legitimate means eventually contributes to the society. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge @KetPan @Vidyut Deep rooted societal changes need something more substantial than changes in laws, laws are meant to b broken
“ @maheshnanda Great individuals make great nations. Confluence of rational self interests ensures welfare of most. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @maheshnanda And yet, both State interference (criminalizing) did exist in curbing Sati and untouchability. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @Vidyut I demand the right to have 8 babies if i feel like it !
“ @maheshnanda BTW, to clarify, I’m *against* criminalizing of producing more than 3 children. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ I support it. As long as I’m not changing diapers :p RT @Anni_Pearl: @Vidyut I demand the right to have 8 babies if i feel like it !
“ @maheshnanda But I’m for withdrawal of subsidies to families that produce more than 2 (or even 1) children. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @maheshnanda The only ethical issue here is: the ‘extra’ child must not suffer on account of choices made by parents. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @maheshnanda Those who’re anyway not planning to have more than 2 children won’t complain. @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @maheshnanda But those planning more than 2 would’ve one more disincentive (though, that shouldn’t be imprisonment). @doctoratlarge @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge sure. We all tax the system in some way or the other and differently. That mother isn’t contributing to pollution @KetPan
“ @KetPan You’re right, it shouldn’t be imprisonment – made to watch ‘Mausam’ for three consecutive shows should be enuf @maheshnanda @Vidyut
“ @Vidyut She will, when her child grows up and starts consuming the nation’s resources @KetPan
“ @doctoratlarge have discouraging measures in place, but criminalizing reproduction is blatant violation of personal freedom. @KetPan
“ @Vidyut You could argue the same for driving above speeding limits @KetPan
“ That is a very, very good argument by @doctoratlarge! Will have to think a bit to (if at all) counter it. 😀 @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge By then, over reactive people may have destroyed the country already. we can’t punish someone on what will happen @KetPan
“ @doctoratlarge I think overspeeding is associated with knowledge of likelihood of more imminently killing/injuring someone else. @Vidyut
“ @KetPan And more children without resources are associated with greater likelihood of poverty and consequent criminality @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge who gets arrested for driving over speeding limits? People pay fine, move on @KetPan
“ BTW, as @Vidyut might recall, I’ve questioned the very idea that reproduction falls in domain of ‘personal’ freedom… @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut …because the unborn child’s consent is never taken whether he wants to be born or not. 😀 @doctoratlarge
“ Unanswerable! RT @KetPan @Vidyut …because the unborn child’s consent is never taken whether he wants to be born or not. 😀 @doctoratlarge
“ @doctoratlarge That is a sociological/economical perspective. But hard to make that a basis of policies in given framework. @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge Actually, that’s a very serious predicament I face in this regard. 🙂 @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge Uh… this is more like capping the number of cars you own. No one is arresting anyone on how they raise kids. @KetPan
“ @Vidyut As @KetPan has pointed out, children are not exactly comparable to cars.You have the right to produce only those you can provide for
“ @Vidyut A manufactured car can be simply kept in a garage, but State’s policies mandate that resources be expended on them… @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut …e.g., universal immunization, right to education, food guarantee bill, employment guarantee. @doctoratlarge
“ @doctoratlarge If it can be proved a particular kid cannot be raised by parents ‘effectively’ its production can be criminalized. @Vidyut
“ @doctoratlarge But in that case, government will have to withdraw all benefits extended to kids. @Vidyut
“ @KetPan lol. Yes, I do. future panic. 😀 @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan Sure, but that is what a country is about. Those will grow up into more tax payers because of all that investment. @doctoratlarge
“ @doctoratlarge Because every parents would be obviously be able to provide for varying number of kids. 🙂 @Vidyut
“ @Vidyut ‘Currency’, ‘money’ is an eyewash unless and until there are resources that stand for money in the market. @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan With the RTE, I don’t know if the government will be able to withdraw education. With free immunizations, the same. @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan Trust me, kids are not the biggest money problem in our country. @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut Meaning, govt may have loads of money, but if there’s no electricity, no land, no fuel, this money makes no sense @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut I meant something else, which was elaborated on in the subsequent tweet. @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut My sis ‘made’ 3 lovely humans – none of us wd change that for anything!
“ @Vidyut Actually, government can withdraw all such phoney ‘rights’ if ‘socialist’ is removed from the Preamble. @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan @Vidyut @doctoratlarge supporting someone else’s choices is a two way street, its not that the three kids or five dont contribute
“ @Uberschizo To be honest, I find the ethical concerns in the issue toooooo complex. 🙂 @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut Actually, a year back, I was comparing stock market vs population of various countries. Seemed to be in sync @KetPan @doctoratlarge
“ Raging discussion on my TL about http://t.co/fSY3UNox between @KetPan @doctoratlarge @Uberschizo @maheshnanda Will archive. Your say?
“ @KetPan abbey, mera dialog? @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @Stupidosaur Yeh tera dialog that? :O I somehow always had this predicament since long. 🙂 @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan that is the fun isint it? @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan But are they such a bad idea? @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan O.O And I thought you kinda claimed to be most dedicated reader of my blog http://t.co/2jCFbITk @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @Vidyut @KetPan @doctoratlarge for GOD sake let them play peacefully,we should not make the issue for economy-JUST SAY NO TO MNC & PAID VOTE
“ @Uberschizo The ‘process’ of meditating/debating is fun, but not the knowledge that it’s bound to be doomed. 🙂 @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan why doomed to failure? ideas challenged are ideas refined. @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @PunditComment why pursuade? what evidence is there to suggest that big families are bad? @Vidyut @KetPan @doctoratlarge @maheshnanda
“ @PunditComment Is there a need at all? The govt already supports two. @KetPan @doctoratlarge @Uberschizo @maheshnanda
“ @Stupidosaur As you might notice I did not speak anything about the subject, but only that your post was emotional 🙂 @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @Uberschizo Because there are bound to be too many mutual contradictions in trying to formulate what’s ethical. @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan thats ok, if we shy away from contradictions, we are left poorer. @Vidyut @doctoratlarge
“ @KetPan also, improving oneself is about learing to work with differences @Vidyut
“ @Uberschizo I’m not saying that we must not debate (otherwise I wouldn’t have been), just that there is non-fun aspect as well. 🙂 @Vidyut